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Stop stealing, innovate

Today I saw this proposal for the Zend Framework. I wouldn't be surprised if this proposal was accepted. Zend Framework seems to be unable to propose anything innovative to PHP developers. The examples provided on this page look like they are copy/pasted from code available in PEAR that already is 5 years old.

I think Zend as a software company has a real problem with innovation. Not surprisingly, PHP suffers the same problem. Most of (if not all) the new features are stolen from Java, C, C++, PERL, ... but nothing seems to be invented here anymore.

Of course, I think HTML_QuickForm2, the project we have been starting to work on will be a lot more interesting than these Zend_Framework proposals. It will be invented here and it will stay in PEAR. PEAR is where the innovation is. Zend_Framework is just, well..., a framework ?

Comments (11)  Permalink

Comments

Jayson Minard @ 21.06.2006 23:23 CEST
In a prior proposal phase, this exact issue was brought up from the framework team: We will not cut-copy-and-paste from other frameworks just for the sake of having an area filled. Proposals will come in with ideas across the board, yet the approval process will filter them to let just those through that directly support the goals of the framework.

The proposal process is open and submissions can be anything. Please do not confuse that with the later direction each might take inside or outside the framework.

-- Jayson (Zend Framework lead)
PHPDeveloper.org @ 21.06.2006 23:25 CESTTRACKBACK
Ben Ramsey @ 21.06.2006 23:27 CEST

Not surprisingly, PHP suffers the same problem. Most of (if not all) the new features are stolen from Java, C, C++, PERL, ... but nothing seems to be invented here anymore.


Was anything here ever new and innovative? PHP is a glue language that, for the most part (other than the basic engine), uses other libraries to provide functionality in the language. The innovation in PHP is that it folds all that functionality and power into one language.
Pierre @ 22.06.2006 00:42 CEST
As it is only a proposal (as explained by Jayson), I find amuzing the "PHP is a glue language" and the "Clean IP" propaganda around some new frameworks.

That hences my point about this marketing concept, which brings no legal waranty.
Ed Finkler @ 22.06.2006 01:44 CEST
Even if it's not intended as such, this sounds a lot more like jealousy than a legit complaint. You give no real evidence here to back up your criticism of Zend. I personally think there's plenty of evidence to the contrary: the ZDE being the only real cross-plaform PHP IDE I know of, and their Cores for i5, Oracle and IBM making PHP easily available in markets it previously wasn't.

"That hences my point about this marketing concept, which brings no legal waranty."

Err, what?
Nick Lo @ 22.06.2006 04:02 CEST
Do you really think the primary need for PHP developers is to have Zend Framework be innovative? PHP itself is certainly not starved of innovative code.

Stable, well-documented, well-tested, flexible, has core features, easy to use, are all things I would put first in looking for a framework. The innovative part comes from the way you decide to use it.
Bertrand Mansion @ 22.06.2006 08:38 CEST
Even if it's not intended as such, this sounds a lot more like jealousy than a legit complaint.

I am neither jealous nor complaining. This is just a reminder that in this market, if you don't innovate, you are at the mercy of those who do.

That hences my point about this marketing concept, which brings no legal waranty.

I think Pierre meant that the "clean IP" concept you see spreading like fungus in some PHP framework is not as reliable as those who use it would like you to believe.

the ZDE being the only real cross-plaform PHP IDE I know of

What about ActiveState Komodo ? Just write an IDE in java, it will be "cross platform", if that's what you call cross-platform... I personally think ZDE is not yet there.
Nate K @ 22.06.2006 15:33 CEST
I found your post somewhat confusing. How innovative do you want them to be with a framework? This is not a CMS where you have specific features, its a framework that lets YOU bring in the innovation however you feel necessary. If it was specific or innovative, it would ultimately not appeal or fit the mold of others needs. So, personally, I think its doing its job well. You mentioned nothing of CakePHP, which is an attempt to emulate RoR - though I like the framework, its not innovative?

So I guess the question is, what do you consider innovative enough?

And - as it was stated above, this post sounds like your a jealous (and then try and plug in something YOU are working on...). I think Zend is moving in the right direction with the framework. I dont use it, and would rather build my own to fit my specific needs - but I have played/tested it and think it does a great job (as so others like CakePHP, codeigniter, symfony, etc)
Bertrand Mansion @ 22.06.2006 16:19 CEST
Nate, you mention Ruby on Rails. That's innovative. I think you should go out in the wild and look at something other than PHP. It will help you figure out what's innovative.

I admit I shameless plugged our project, but I couldn't resist since some people are proposing to Zend ideas they steal from me...

I think there is nothing to be jealous of in Zend_Framework. Most of my current tools are more powerful and advanced than what they are producing. Of course, they have the merit to publish what they are doing. But the more people use their framework, the more people use PHP, the better Zend goes. I don't share the same business goals, that's all. I only wish out of the billions of PHP users, there were more innovators and less borrowers.
shlomil @ 22.06.2006 16:32 CEST
Chill out man!
It's just a proposal in the Wiki. Just because Zend has a proposal for a Magic object that scans your brain waves and automatically generates code - doesn't mean it's going to be implemented tomorrow :P

http://framework.zend.com/wiki/display/ZFPROP/Sample+Zend_Magic+Proposal [http://framework.zend.com/wiki/display/ZFPROP/Sample+Zend_Magic+Proposal]
Nate Klaiber @ 22.06.2006 16:33 CEST
I agree with you that there should be more innovators. Everyone tries to copy/emulate something that is successful. Hence the myspace wannabes, the flickr wannabes, and the delicious wannabes. People dont want to be innovative, they want to make money fast. I dont have to step out of PHP to see innovation - that comment in and of itself makes me question what is innovative to you. In ANY language you can be innovative, some moreso than others - it depends on your needs.

I have a friend building a CMS right now. Its incredible. Its the best thing I have seen. Excellent use of AJAX and different technologies. It is very innovative in that I havent seen other CMS's doing what his is doing right now. So, would I be innovative if I tried the same thing? My view of innovation circles around my needs. I am not going to make something just because I can or just because it would be cool to someone else. I will build something that serves a purpose in a fresh and new way (where possible). I will build around needs.

I do like RoR, very much so - but it does not define innovation. Your statement makes it sound as though if you are using PHP, you cannot be innovative - which I would completely disagree with you on that. I have used other languages (and do so for different projects) - that doesnt make one language more innovative than the other - its the person behind the screen that can be innovative.

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